This is a transcript of Watching Mental Health Season 5, Episode 7 which you can watch and listen to here:
Katie Waechter: Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Watching Mental Health. My name is Katie, and I am so excited because today I have an important guest talking about a really important topic that we don't usually talk about, and that is Asma Rehman. She's the founder and director of Grief Recovery Center. She's also a licensed professional counselor and a certified grief recovery specialist. She started her private practice back in 2015. So she's really grown since that to really help specialize in helping people navigate grief and loss in all of its forms. That's from the death of a loved one to the end of a relationship, pet loss, even the loss of trust or faith.
Today on Watching Mental Health, we're gonna be talking about her experience both as someone who has been through loss and as someone who helps others navigate their own grief journeys. We're also going to discuss why it's so important to talk about grief when we talk about mental health, which is not something that we normally do, and why it's so important to talk about grief with mental health and stigma as well. We all experience grief and loss at some point in our lives, and mental health is so impacted by that, and the impacts of grief can be so profound on our mental health. So it's time that we talked about it. I'm so excited because today we are going to welcome to the show, Asma. Thank you so much for joining me.
Asma Rehman: Thank you, Katie, so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here and talk about a topic that I think needs more attention and to be talked about. So, yes, my name is Asma Rehman, and I'm the founder and clinical director of Grief Recovery Center here in Houston, Texas. I'm also a licensed professional counselor in the state of Texas. I also have a certification as a grief recovery specialist through the Grief Recovery Institute. I founded the Grief Recovery Center because I recognize the importance of mental health support. In particular, I'm super passionate about helping people navigate grief, loss, and just difficult life transitions. So I wanted to create a place, a dedicated place to helping people process their grief, loss, and to heal.
When we think about grief, we generally associate it with death, right? But the reality is grief goes beyond that. There's actually more than 40 life events that can produce feelings of grief. Some additional examples are divorce, relationship changes, infertility, pregnancy loss, pet loss, career changes, health challenges, and loss of friendships. There could also be unmet expectations or grieving the life that we thought we would have. So, really, any experience that involves losing something meaningful can bring about feelings of grief.
Katie: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for explaining that. I think that a lot of people try to avoid the word grief because they're trying to avoid in some ways the inevitable, and that's that life changes and shifts. I think we grieve more than we realize sometimes, and that can really impact our lives. But before we get into all of that, I wanna back up a little bit, and I just wanna ask you a little bit about your journey. What brought you to this place? What made you wanna enter this space specifically in grief around mental health?
Asma: Yeah, so my mental health journey is personal and a big part of why I do what I do today. I've experienced a very painful, life-altering loss of my own. It was an experience that changed me. Before experiencing it myself, I don't think I really understood the impact that grief could have on someone. Going through that experience gave me a different perspective on loss and emotional pain. I experienced the never-ending roller coaster of emotions. Some days I didn't want to get out of bed. Other days I would just laugh and smile and put on this fake face just to make others believe I was okay. But the reality is I wasn't okay. I was heartbroken and there was a big disconnect between what people saw on the outside and what I was experiencing internally. One of the hardest parts was not knowing what to do with all those emotions. I didn't know how to process what I was feeling. I didn't know how to navigate the loss or how to move forward.
Nobody really teaches you what to do after experiencing a significant loss. You know that you're hurting, but you don't necessarily know how to work through the pain. I think that's something a lot of grievers can relate to. I came across the Grief Recovery Institute and the Grief Recovery Program. The more I learned about the program, the more I realized it was exactly what I needed. So I decided to go through the program myself, and I will say it changed my life. It helped me better understand grief and my emotional responses. It gave me tools to work through my emotions and begin healing. I took it a step further and decided to pursue a specialization through the Grief Recovery Institute, through the program. That passion became the foundation for Grief Recovery Center.
What started as something that I needed for myself on a personal level became much more on a professional level so I can make the resources available to others. Having experienced grief myself gives me a real personal connection to the people that we serve at Grief Recovery Center. Not because everyone's experience is the same, but because I understand what it feels like to be lost and not know where to turn. I understand the desire to want to feel okay again. I want people to have a place where they don't have to pretend. They don't have to put on a smile or minimize their feelings or worry about being judged. They can just show up exactly how they are. My personal experience is a big part of why I'm so passionate about providing support to others in the community.
Katie: That's really amazing. I think it's really cool that you really took it a step further to get that specialization in being a grief recovery counselor and a support person. People assume that they know how to respond to death and to grief. Oftentimes we don't, and when our loved ones are grieving, it's hard to know what to say, right? I find that a challenge, like to know what to say to my loved one who's grieving, to not diminish that, and to recognize that even three months later or three years later, they could still be really grieving that loss and to be respectful of that. I just think that it's important to have that language, so I think it's really cool that you went through that process to find that language.
Asma: Absolutely. The program itself also teaches a lot about grief and loss, providing a lot of education on the topic. In our society, there is a lot of misinformation when it comes to grief and loss. There are a lot of myths about what grief looks like and what it should be. In reality, it's none of that. There's no special formula for grief, there's not a one-size-fits-all, and it's so individual for everyone. The program really opened my eyes. I learned so much about myself that I didn't want to keep it a secret. I knew that I wanted to help others. I was so excited because it helped me so much, and I know grief is so heavy and so painful. Providing a little bit of help and relief to another griever just means so much to me.
Katie: Yeah, and it's just so needed, right? Because again, we all experience grief. I think that we really try to avoid it because it hurts, but that's not good for our mental health. So that leads me to my next question, which is really, why is it so important—and I think we know this—to talk about grief when it comes to mental health? I have seen grief really impact people's mental health, and a lot of times we don't put two and two together. So why is it so important to talk about it when we're talking about mental health? And why do we not? It feels like we don't talk about it enough, right?
Asma: Right, right. Yes, one of my biggest priorities is helping people feel comfortable seeking mental health support. Many people wait until they're at a breaking point before considering therapy. Or they spend months or years trying to manage everything themselves because they feel like they should be able to handle it on their own. Sometimes people feel ashamed or embarrassed about struggling emotionally. They worry about what others will think, or they fear being judged or misunderstood. They question whether their experiences are significant enough to warrant therapy or grief therapy.
I want to normalize therapy as a resource, not something reserved for people in crisis. Seeking help is a sign of recognizing your needs, not a sign of weakness. I want to be able to help clients feel comfortable walking into a therapy session exactly how they are. They don't have to pretend that they're okay. They don't have to know the right words or have something figured out. They don't have to minimize their emotions to make somebody else feel more comfortable. They should feel heard, understood, and validated. Therapy is a place where you can let your guard down and be completely honest about what you're experiencing.
When it comes to grief and loss, grief is incredibly individualized. The same experience can affect two people very differently. What might be devastating for one person might not have the same impact on somebody else. We can't dictate how someone should feel or how long they should be grieving for. Comparing losses or minimizing someone's experience is also not a good idea. All types of grief deserve acknowledgement, even when others don't understand the loss.
I want to create an environment where people feel safe enough to be vulnerable and to grieve, remove the pressure to pretend everything is okay, and normalize seeking help and prioritizing their mental health. Really, it's just to be able to provide support, guidance, and tools that help them move forward in their grief journey.
Katie: Yeah. You know, I think you kind of answered this, but my next question was gonna be: when should someone reach out during their grief journey? It seems like your answer is before the breaking point, right? It's okay to come in if you're just feeling grief, and it's okay to just be in that place and have that experience. Is that kind of what you think?
Asma: Absolutely. There's no certain time frame. Grief doesn't work on a schedule. A lot of people think, "I'm gonna wait a few months and then I'll start," or "I'll wait until the one-year mark." But really, grief does not work that way.
Katie: Right. Yeah, "I can get through it and then, if I'm not okay, then I'll do it. This is just part of the process." But maybe you don't have to go through it alone.
Asma: Absolutely. Grief already is so isolating. It's very isolating. A lot of the time, people just don't feel comfortable sharing about their grief to others. Let me give you an example. Let's say there's a death of a spouse. You might give your friend condolences and be supportive for the first few weeks, or check in on them for a few months. But after that, people return to their normal lives and routines. That leaves a griever feeling like, "Maybe I need to move on too," or "Why is it taking me so long? It's been a few months, right?" Grief does not operate on a schedule, so there's no right or wrong time to seek support. Anytime you feel like you need the resources or the tools, or you just want that space to just be yourself, that's the time to seek out grief therapy.
Katie: Yeah, absolutely. For anyone out there who's maybe struggling, what are some signs or symptoms that their mental health is really being impacted by grief and that maybe they should be taking the next step and reaching out?
Asma: Yeah, so one of the most common symptoms or characteristics that a griever experiences is difficulty concentrating—having a really hard time concentrating. If you're noticing that, that might be a sign to reach out for help. You might also notice other changes, like trouble sleeping, trouble eating, your appetite being off, not feeling like engaging in activities you used to, or wanting to disconnect from your family and friends. Those are some of the signs where it would be a good idea for you to reach out for support.
Katie: Okay, that's great to know. That's really fabulous. Just to talk a little bit more about how long it lasts, you said that grief has no set timeline and everybody's a little bit different. But for somebody out there who's struggling, do you think that grief is something that can be overcome? Or is it something that we really learn to live with?
Asma: In the traditional sense, grief isn't specifically something you can just overcome. It's something you learn to navigate and integrate into your life. When you experience a significant loss, your life changes. You may not be the same person you were before, and the goal isn't necessarily to get you back to that version of yourself. Healing is learning how to live with what has changed without allowing the loss to completely define your future. It's not about erasing the experience or pretending it didn't happen. It's about gradually finding a way to move forward while acknowledging what you've been through.
One of the most important things people should know is that you can experience happiness while still grieving. You can miss someone deeply and still enjoy your life. You can get married, have a child, celebrate an accomplishment, or experience a major milestone and still wish that person was right there next to you. Those emotions don't cancel out. You don't have to feel guilty for experiencing joy after loss. Healing also doesn't mean that you're forgetting the person or leaving them behind. You can carry the love, the memories, and the lessons with you while grieving and giving yourself permission to live a full and meaningful life. Moving forward doesn't diminish the importance of what or who you've lost.
Katie: Thank you for saying that. That is so important to acknowledge—that you can still enjoy life and grieve. I think that there's a sense of survivor's guilt or just guilt in general when you laugh for the first time after you've lost somebody. That can be so hard on your mental health in addition to the grief, right?
Asma: Absolutely. I hear that all the time. People say, "I shouldn't be celebrating a birthday," or "I shouldn't be celebrating this holiday without my loved one here." The reality is finding a way to move forward while you're still grieving, and being able to incorporate and honor your loved one while still finding ways to move forward.
Katie: Yeah, that's so true. Touching back on what you were saying earlier about how you don't just overcome it, I have heard people describe it as a hole in your heart. The hole never goes away; you just learn to live around it.
Asma: Exactly. Yes, that's the best way to describe grief. It'll always be a part of you. As long as there's love there, there's grief there. Grief and love go hand in hand, in my opinion. You just learn how to live your life around it, but that grief is still a part of you and, honestly, it will always be a part of you.
Katie: Yeah, for sure. This is just such an important conversation. Bringing it full circle back to mental health, I think a lot of people don't recognize how mental health is so impacted by grief. What really—other than your own profound experience of loss—led you here? It seems like you also looked around and saw that there was a big hole in this space. From your experience, have you seen a lot of people who are grieving where those challenges become mental health challenges like depression, anxiety, or PTSD? Have you seen those kinds of things pop up?
Asma: Absolutely. I think one of the most important things I've noticed is a lot of people tend to operate differently from the outside versus the inside. On the outside they may have it together—they're going to work, taking care of their kids, and fulfilling their responsibilities. But on the inside, it's totally different, and they're really struggling emotionally because there hasn't been enough space to process the grief. We sometimes tend to think that if we just give it time, things will get better, right? There's a saying that "time heals all wounds." The reality is it's not time alone; it's what you're doing with the time. Being able to actually work through the grief, process it, and find ways to work through those difficult and painful emotions is very important. I find that a lot with my clients: they're trying to make it seem like everything is okay on the outside, but on the inside, it's a totally different picture.
Katie: Yeah. That's powerful. It's not about the time; it's about what you do with it. Saying time heals all wounds is in some ways minimizing, right? It can take however long it needs to take to get through acute grief. For you, you're around this all day, every day. These are hard conversations to have. How do you handle your self-care, your own mental health, and your own grief? Do you find that your own grief gets triggered by being around others who are grieving?
Asma: Yeah, good question. As a therapist, I wholeheartedly believe in therapy myself. If I am going through a significant change or difficult time in my life, I definitely reach out to my therapist for support. I believe in that as part of maintaining self-care as a grief therapist. Also for me, a big part of self-care is having really strong boundaries in place. That's one of the most important components for my emotional well-being: recognizing when it's time to step away from work, maintaining a healthy work-life balance, not allowing my professional responsibilities to completely consume my identity, and understanding I can't be everything to everyone. Really just making time for myself outside of my professional role is one of the most important things I do as a form of self-care.
Katie: Yeah, that's beautiful. I'm all about boundaries; I'm a boundary person all day. It's just so important to take care of your own mental health when you're in this space. For anyone out there who's in this space, it is important to get those emotions out, even if you think that you’re okay, right? Because it can build up, and then you don't realize how much it's impacted you.
Asma: Absolutely. As mental health professionals, we talk to clients about boundaries, emotional health, and prioritizing themselves. The same principles apply to us. We can't constantly encourage others to take care of themselves if we're neglecting our own needs. In my opinion, self-care isn't selfish—it's necessary. We have to model healthy behaviors and recognize that our well-being matters just as much.
Katie: Yeah, for sure. This has been such an insightful conversation. I wanna ask you one more question about stigma. Grief is still in such a state of stigma—in some ways more than mental health, right? Mental health is being discussed much more these days. We still have a long way to go, but it feels like grief is still very much brushed under the rug. There's still a large stigma around talking about grief in society, as well as within our own communities and families. Maybe part of that is we don't know what to say or how to respond. Do you have any advice or tips for family members or community members on how to respond to others who may be grieving?
Asma: Yes, this is a great question. I have this conversation quite a bit, and I hear from loved ones or friends saying, "I don't know what to say, I don't want to say the wrong thing, I don't want to make them feel even worse." When it comes to grief and loss, the biggest thing you can do to support your friends, colleagues, or loved ones is really just to listen. Just listen. A lot of times, grievers say, "I'm cut off," "I'm not able to finish my sentence," or "I'm being given advice on what to do." When it comes to grief and loss, a big part of it is just listening, being there, letting your loved one talk, and giving them the space to open up and share. There's a saying in the Grief Recovery Institute that I like: "Be a heart with ears." I love that because it's true. Honestly, it's as simple as listening, giving space, and asking your loved one, "How can I support you? What can I do to help you during this time?" It's really those simple, basic things.
Katie: Everyone can do that. We can all sit and listen. Sometimes it's hard to sit with others in their grief or in their darkness, but sometimes that's all they need.
Asma: Yes. Going back to what you were saying, there is a stigma with grief, and it makes people uncomfortable because they don't know what to say or are afraid of saying the wrong thing. That ties into what I was saying: you don't have to have all the right words. You're not a grief therapist, but you can be a great friend and family member by simply listening, not judging, and not giving advice. Simply just listening.
Katie: That's so good. Okay, well, this is really my last question. Speaking on grief stigma, how can we advocate in our culture and society that it's okay to talk about grief and loss when people are still so clammy about it?
Asma: Right. I think it starts with just being able to talk about it more. If we're talking about it more, that means the other person is listening, right? That's kind of what it goes back to. I think that's why people tend to feel shut down when it comes to grief, because they feel like they're not being heard or that someone is giving them advice. The griever doesn't want advice—they don't want to be told what to do or what not to do. They simply want to be heard. It really starts with breaking down the walls that grief is an embarrassing or shameful thing. In reality, we all go through grief. We've all experienced grief in one form or another, whether it's a tangible loss or an intangible loss. Grief is universal, and we all experience it. Being able to have family and friends share more about it can start there and pave the way for us to not just sweep it under the rug.
Katie: I completely agree. It's all about communication and talking about it. Those talks start in the community and in the family, and they reach out from there. They start local, and it's just so key because we all experience loss. For anyone out there who's really struggling, just know you're not alone, right? It's okay to reach out for help. It's okay to ask, and it's okay to say, "Hey, I'm struggling with grief right now," because we all do sometimes.
Asma: Absolutely. Grief changes us, but it doesn't have to be the end of the story. We can acknowledge what we've lost, honor what it means to us, and still give ourselves permission to experience everything life has to offer while moving forward.
Katie: Thank you so much. These were such powerful words of wisdom, and great advice for family members and people who are struggling in grief themselves. Thank you for joining the show today and for sharing your expertise on grief. It's so important that we keep talking about it, so I'd love to have you back anytime to keep talking about grief and loss. We're approaching the holiday season now, right? And it impacts people even more. Before we let you go, I just want to get your last thoughts or advice for anyone who may be struggling going into the holiday season.
Asma: Talk about your loved one, say their name out loud, find ways to honor them, and find ways to have their memories carry on. They may not be physically around, but they're still in your heart. Finding that connection is so important, especially during the holidays. Also, reach out for support. You're not in this alone, and you don't have to navigate grief alone. Reach out for help—it's okay to reach out for help.
Katie: Yeah, absolutely. Wow, thank you so much. This was such a good conversation. Thank you to everybody who tuned in today to Watching Mental Health. We have new episodes coming out on Wednesdays at KatieRoseWaechter.com. You can also catch Watching Mental Health on Spotify, YouTube, Apple, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Again, thank you, Asma, for joining us and for giving your heart and expertise. I think that people listening are really gonna take something from this. Thank you so much.
Asma: Thank you, Katie.
Katie: Have a good one, everyone. We'll talk to you soon. Bye.
